A letter from me
Dear parents of annoying kids,
Please refrain from bringing your ill-behaved children to restaurants. If you can't make your kid sit in his seat for the entirety of the meal, he doesn't belong in a restaurant. If you can't keep him from singing his ABCs at the top of his lungs several times while wandering around my table, he doesn't belong in a restaurant. Every moment he is out of his seat, he is stressing me out.
My husband and I can go out to eat once a week - work is busy and all. During that one time a week, we want to relax and enjoy each others' company. We don't enjoy your child and his trotting around and his loud pleas for attention. Shut him up. I blame you and, frankly, I think you need to be slapped.
Or sterilized. Your choice, really.
Love,
me
p.s. I'm completely happy to listen to you trying to discipline your kids, until you reach a point where they are either sitting down quietly or taken out of the restaurant. But I don't have patience for your applause once he finishes the ABCs for the fifth time at the top of his lungs.
p.p.s. This is obviously not directed at parents of children with special needs. I completely understand you're in a more difficult situation and as such have tons of patience and respect for you.
Note also that this post was written with quite a lot of sarcasm. I think most of you understand that, but just in case you didn't, I'm just throwing it out there. :) Obviously, I don't think anyone needs to be sterilized. I don't really want to offend anyone - just, we've all sat in a restaurant next to the table with annoying children before. What's wrong with the parents! :)
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Reminds me of this post about kids in airports.
Adam: Yes.
Hapes: Obviously, you bring up some excellent points. I don't really expect parents to not eat out with their children, no. Nor do I expect children to behave all the time. Also, I have no doubts that your children (and all of my friends' children) are awesome.
I guess what I'm looking for here is some interest from the parent to make sure his child is not disrupting everyone in the restaurant. If an adult started shouting at the level of volume that child was, he would be asked to leave (James heard the ABCs from the bathroom). While I'm aware that when a kid does said shouting, there will be more tolerance, I still think someone should make an effort to quiet him.
I actually do like kids. Quite a lot. When I'm watching them almost get squashed by busboys who are trying to hurry and go about doing their jobs, that stresses me out. It should also stress the parents out, but I guess it doesn't. When I watch these kids wander all the way to the door and almost into another dining room, I want to hop up and fetch the child before anything happens to him. Obviously that's not my responsibility, but if I feel like I'm the only one paying attention, I do feel responsible.
I have vivid memories of my parents looking at us and saying: Do you want to leave? And us shaking our heads and shutting up. Maybe we were older. I have no idea.
I guess I just feel like there's a certain level of common courtesy that's expected. I know its a nice time out for these families, but it's also supposed to be a nice time out for all of the other patrons in the restaurant. And, yes, I think we all have a certain level of responsibility to not be rude, here. When I'm out with friends with kids, I always try to make an effort to keep them entertained enough that they will be fairly quiet and still. Sure, that takes away from my enjoyment a little, but it goes with the package, right?
Or maybe I'm just feeling the acute effects of being childless at 29, one of a dying breed. ;) My little bethlet brain is all like: I must struggle to understand this if I have any chance of curtailing this annoyance lest I be annoyed for the rest of my life.
I will note here that I am well aware that not all parents are as craptastic as the ones last night and this frustration is aimed at them not all of the good parents. :) Just, c'mon people. Your kids going to grow up to be a total brat if you don't give him some boundaries.
I'd like to note in bethlet's defense that she's dined out with myself and one or two of my children many times and been nothing but gracoius and supportive doing so. There's a line between child-appropriate and child-inappropriate dining and a line between disciplinign your child and encouraging bad behavior and I'm sure this post is only directed at people who cross those lines, perhaps even at those who cross both.
There are places and times when you take children out to eat and places and times where you do NOT, and then there's the fuzzy place in between. In that fuzzy place I think it's especially important to make sure your children are behaving well and perhaps walk them outside for a bit if they are not.
Of course, if you going to the local child-infested eatery at 6:30 PM you should pretty much be expecting to be dining in the midst of a toddler circus, and take your lumps.
When you eat out it is courteous to respect the atmosphere of the restaurant. It would be inappropriate for a couple to be too physically intimate or verbally suggestive in a family restaurant. It would be inappropriate to hold a large, loud bachelor party in a small romantic restaurant. It would be inappropriate to run around singing loudly in an seafood restaurant in downtown Manhattan. When taking a child to a restaurant the standards are relaxed a little but the parents still bear responsibility to ensure the behavior of the child is appropriate.
When you read a blog you should except raw, in the moment, commentary on the author's personal life. An overly literal interpretation is naive. Personal attacks on the author's character and ethnicity are especially inappropriate. If you are easily offended don't read bethlet.net.
Iain is usually pretty well behaved. Because if he won't stay in his seat, he has to go sit in the car with daddy. And sitting in the car with grumpy daddy who has had to leave his own meal is no fun.
That's because you're an awesome parent and understand appropriateness. :)
I've never understood why parents take their children to supermarkets just to smack them... ;)
FWIW, I only felt obligated to respond in the manner I did out of obligation to the other parents in the world. My kids also get seriously strict behavior rules in restaurants, and if any of the behavior described would come from my kids, the car would be the LEAST of their problems (not that I would beat them or anything, but taking them out to the car is insufficient.)
I also am curious about James' comment about 'personal attacks on the author's character and ethnicity'...Reading back, I seem to be the only one 'disagreeing' with the viewpoint bethlet states (and in fact, I basically agree, but the abrasiveness was off-putting). Which seems to imply but does not flat-out state that I'm the one attacking her 'character and ethnicity'...In which case, you don't know me very well (in fact, at all), because I think she's one of the coolest people I know (and hot too ... whoops, now you're mad at me for that!). As far as being easily offended, a> I wasn't, except on a general intellectual 'nuh-uh!' level, and uh, b> by posting this response to me, it kind of points out that SOMEONE is easily offended...
Come to think of it, I'm probably being too abrasive in general in this thread, so I'll simply apologize, and stop commenting! How's that?!
You're not being too abrasive at all, hapes! The comment to which James was responding happened on the LJ thread of this post and although he encouraged me to transfer it over here so it was saved, I just don't want that brand of negativity on my blog.
That said, yes, some explanation was probably in order. And, no, it has nothing to do with all of the nice people who commented here and who probably see my point a little better.
Why is taking them out to the car insufficient if it accomplishes the goal? I've had to to do it maybe twice ever. He's been in restaurants many more times beyond that.
Well, we haven't had to deal with this in years (and considering my kids are only 7 and 5, that indicates the success). Generally, the offenses were more significant than just a timeout. That worked the tantrum out of their system, but the underlying cause was still present.
Well, in that case I'll just have to say that different things work for different people. Maybe I'm just already really in touch with the underlying causes, because I'm constantly addressing them. I don't know.
Hapes,
While I stand by everything I said in my previous comment (as individual statements) I want to reiterate Beth's point that they were not all specifically directed at you.
I think we can all agree that there are certain standards of behavior in restaurants. The exact standard depends on the place and, obviously, children can't be expected to behave as adults.
Reviewing the post and comments, I don't think that there is any difference in opinion between you, me and Beth. Indeed, as a parent you seem to hold your own children to higher standards that I would generally expect from a random parent.
I think we can also agree that, due to the highly personal nature of the medium, blog posts are often highly charged and not terribly balanced. They may even be, dare I say it, rants. This is a point I was trying to make to you. If you were to read a post saying "All Volvo drivers should have their licenses taken away" you might conjecture that the author had just narrowly missed hitting a badly driven Volvo. You are unlikely to take the statement at face value or expect the author to write to Congress asking for a bill to be introduced.
As Beth mentioned there were other comments left on Live Journal which were frankly offensive. I often read blog posts that I vehmently disagree with but would only leave a comment if I was certain it was relevent and well reasoned. These posts were personal and inappropriate. Their affect on Beth triggered a protective response in me.
In hindsight, it was a mistake on my part to try to answer all comments in the same place and I apologize for any misunderstanding.
James
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Beth Ballingall
food lover : world traveller : gamer : New Yorker : twenty-something : former Londoner : handbag lover : erstwhile soprano : geek
Speaking as a parent, I have a bit of an objection to this post.
Some things with which I agree:
A child that repeatedly sings ANY song more than once or twice: Shut up.
A child that cannot at least remain NEAR his own table: Sit down.
The parents are at fault.
Some things with which I disagree:
The restaurant is there so you and your husband, as lovely as you both are, can have a nice romantic dinner, just the two of you. (We don't get to eat out because someone else doesn't like kids?)
A child will remain seated the entire meal. Especially one who is young enough to still be proud of singing the ABCs. (They're bored, they wiggle.)
It is my duty to avoid stressing you (or any other patron) out. (If you find restaurants that have children present stress-inducing, please consider that your choice of restaurant may be flawed if they allow children).
In summary: Children can be annoying, but not all children ARE annoying. Families are entitled to eat out just as much as you are, and in fact for similar reasons (not identical...parents eat out to relax from the hassle of 7AM to 11PM dealing with the needs of others, by getting other people to cook for them). Just because you only get to see your husband once a week doesn't mean I cannot take my kids to that restaurant.